• Welcome to engineeringclicks.com
  • Holy Grail of Mechanical Design?

    Discussion in 'The Leisure Lounge' started by Paul T, Oct 21, 2012.

    1. robertjeffery

      robertjeffery Active Member

      Joined:
      Dec 2015
      Posts:
      28
      Likes Received:
      0
      my brain hurts........

      I am only looking in from the outside, and i couldn't be bothered to read all 22 pages of posts.

      until this morning i have never given perceptual motion machines / free energy any consideration what so ever. I freely admit, i cant get my head around some of these machines, this is just my logical input.

      all the calculations that follow are just the most basis engineering principles, all from memory, so i might even have equations incorrect.


      The simplest view on the wheel to me, is that the majority of the mass's on the right hand side of the wheel are further away from the central pivot point then on the left hand side of the wheel. creating a difference in moments which then result in a output torque.

      [​IMG]




      A torque and a speed produce a power. the speed of the wheel for this example i have used from the video and counted the revolutions in a set time to give me 25rpm.
      [​IMG]



      PERFECT we are generating .04kW for doing nothing???? but are we???? now what i am struggling to get my head over is what energy is required to move each pair of the mass (6kg) by 50mm to create the offset in toque. as the wheel spins centripetal force will be trying to keep the Mass to the outside of the wheel, but somehow we overcome this centripetal force.

      now for simplicity i have assumed the energy required to move the weights to the center is done by lifting them up against gravity, like it appears to be done from my "Area of concern".

      once again basic physics principles, potential energy = mgh

      [​IMG]


      In my basic understanding with no dimensions i would assume that a perceptual motion machine of this style wont be able to generate any free / extra power.


      I would view this system as a flywheel and a flywheel only. when a flywheel is up to speed, it takes little to no power to keep it spinning, so all the power from the inverter can then carry on to the lights.
       
    2.  
    3. robertjeffery

      robertjeffery Active Member

      Joined:
      Dec 2015
      Posts:
      28
      Likes Received:
      0
      Also, just a concern looking at the images, the main wheel center shaft looks very slender indeed.

      my concern is a failure mode called fatigue, which in this instance will be very dangerous, as you have a 250kg 5foot diameter wheel spinning around un-guarded. a fatigue failure happens generally with no warning whatsoever.

      next time you see the chap who manufactured it, what grade of steel was used on the center shaft. if it was anything with a yield strength up around 350-400MPa i don't think it will ever fail. but if that shaft is manufactured from EN1a or something equivilant (070m20) then i would be concerned of the longevity of the shaft.

      [​IMG]

      Just so the number 204Mpa has some contents to the non structural chaps. that funny symbol that looks like a suirly "6" is called sigma, and it refers to Stress. a material can only withstand a certain amount of what is known as stress before it deforms. Conventional mild steel used in every day engineering has a Yield limit of 275Mpa. so that means the wheel above can technically way 340Kg without bending the shaft so that its un-usable.

      Fatigue is where a component / shaft is loaded in a cyclic manor, eg a diving board. the load is on - off - on - off, which in turn creates a tiny little crack, not visible to the naked eye to propagate though the materiel. until the crack is so far though the material, it fails.

      Sorry for the very long winded explanation of something that caught my eye, and of slight concern.

      Kind Regards
      Rob
       
    4. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Oct 2012
      Posts:
      392
      Likes Received:
      0
      Hi Rob, "the area of concern" in your drawing is interesting. I don't think maths as we know it allows for the torque calculation of the weights levering the pendulums in this area.


      I've figured out a way to enhance the basic device without reflecting the output eg. like a motor bolted to an alternator does.

      A skilled R&D guy I know is also building passive magnetic bearings for the main shaft which is being crowd funded.

      I'll have something to show later in the year. It's going to blow you all off your chairs!

      Best regards,

      Paul
       
    5. robertjeffery

      robertjeffery Active Member

      Joined:
      Dec 2015
      Posts:
      28
      Likes Received:
      0
      Hi Paul, if a few dimensions are given i would love to try and calculate the power input / output using maths.

      also Passive magnetic bearings for the main shaft? is that so the entire wheel effectively floats with zero drag on any bearing assembly?
       
    6. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Oct 2012
      Posts:
      392
      Likes Received:
      0
      Hi Rob, just got to a pc... I tried to respond on my phone but it kept crashing.

      Yes to zero drag on the main shaft and no input needed to maintain the zero drag.

      A number of neodymium manufacturers in Germany and China state that the magnets will only lose 1% of there power in 100 years.

      How that is calculated I really don't know.

      The way I see it is. If I hold a piece of paper to a fridge door I will eventually get tired. A magnet doing the same job is not going to get tired.


      A .xls spreadsheet that allowed the weight of the components plus the sizes would be a dream.

      Lets say the difference between 1m and 2m diameter and the choice of 2 to 32 weights. There would need to be some sort of clever calculations here.

      I admire you have stepped up to embark on a real mathematical analysis of what is possible.


      I just wanted to add.

      If each weight is made from square bar and has a flat bar magnet attached on top. Then a separate motor assembly featuring a pendulum, weight and repelling flat bar magnet is fixed to an additional part of the frame.

      The magnets would reach full repelling force with the main wheel pendulums at the 3' clock position.

      The timing of the motor to main shaft will be controlled by an ABS sensor. Hall effect or VMR.

      The sensor would be controlled by a basic chip with a map of motor advance and retarding.

      The position of the motor and the timing can be tuned using a 4 channel oscilloscope monitoring input and output voltage and current.

      Basic leverage is amplified with gravitational potential being the environment input.

      It is a gravitational potential engine. My design, ours to enjoy.

      All the components sourced from Mother Nature.

      Best regards,

      Paul
       
      Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
    7. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Oct 2012
      Posts:
      392
      Likes Received:
      0
      I highly recommend this video. It is a big eye opener!

       
      Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2016
    8. Dana

      Dana Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Sep 2010
      Posts:
      403
      Likes Received:
      3
      You might get tired, but neither you nor the magnet are doing any work.
       
    9. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Oct 2012
      Posts:
      392
      Likes Received:
      0
      Does that mean a magnet in your hard drive, abs sensors, crank sensors and alternator doesn't do any work?
       
    10. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Oct 2012
      Posts:
      392
      Likes Received:
      0
      Does that mean if a magnetic arrangement levitates a shaft carrying a lot of weight so there is zero friction the magnets are doing no work?
       
    11. Dana

      Dana Well-Known Member

      Joined:
      Sep 2010
      Posts:
      403
      Likes Received:
      3
      Correct. Work, which is the same thing as energy, is defined as a force applied over a distance. The units of work are lb-ft or N-m. When you push on the wall you feel like you're doing lots of work but since the wall doesn't move the force is applied over zero distance so the work done is zero. A magnet levitating a shaft does no work, since the shaft doesn't change its distance relative to the shaft.

      The magnet itself is doing no work; it's just applying the force. The work is done by the input shaft causing other parts to move against the force of the magnetic field, equal and opposite reaction of the case providing a force to keep the magnet in place. In the case of an alternator with no permanent magnets, some electrical energy (work) is being provided to the field windings.

      Now, to get back to a so-called "gravitational motor" (and I don't know why I bother), it can do no work (it can't produce any energy). In the simplest case, you have a weight at a height. By letting it drop, you get energy from it (weight times distance, m*g*y). Now what? The energy has been removed from the system. To continue the cycle you have to lift it again the same distance against the same gravitational field, which takes exactly as much energy is you got from it. Net work: zero. It doesn't matter what circuitous route you move the weights along, what arrangement of cams, levers, or wheels, in the end you gain energy from the downward moving weight, and use it up moving it back up.
       

    Share This Page

    1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies.
      Dismiss Notice