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  • Holy Grail of Mechanical Design?

    Discussion in 'The Leisure Lounge' started by Paul T, Oct 21, 2012.

    1. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

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      Actually the centrifugal pump makes a draft.

      The turbine takes advantage of this and the diverging nozzle increases the vacuum. The more the nozzle is diverging the faster the air accelerates and the pressure decreases. There are also two large diverging nozzles from turbine to pump..... The velocity is again sped up and it hits the rotor in the pump. Then the volute shape and diverging nozzle exhaust speed it up again creating more vacuum.
       
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    3. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

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      The rotor exhaust ports also chop the air which stretches it. Negative air pressure is decompressed air. An elastic fluid like an uncoiled spring. The turbine is a decompressor that rarefies the air.
       
    4. s.weinberg

      s.weinberg Well-Known Member EngineeringClicks Expert

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      OMG, you were able to create a vacuum at the inlet of a pump (actually a pneumatic motor, I assume, as I'm guessing you spun up the big rotor in the box, but I figure you'll understand 'pump' better). That's mindblowing. It's almost as if you've created the situation that exists for every other pump (and hydraulic/pneumatic motor) ever created! Genius.

      The pump is not spinning because of the vacuum. That's ass-backwards. You spun up the pump with external force, and it's sucking in air, which creates the vacuum.

      And, surprise, surprise, due to air resistance and friction, it's getting slower over time.
       
    5. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

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      Okay here are a few facts.

      1. The Tesla pump flywheel after being spun up by a motor creates a lower pressure at the pump inlet.

      2. A Tesla turbines exhaust is bolted to the inlet of the centrifugal Tesla pump.

      3. The Tesla turbine rotor is turned by the incoming draft on the turbine inlets.

      4. The current surface area of the turbine exhaust ports = 2090mm2

      5. The current area of the inlets combined = 28mm2

      6. The pump is heavily restricited by the very small inlet area compaired to the exhaust. The result is low flow of air.

      7. The top speed of the turbine rotor with 3mm port 18,000rpm.

      8. The top speed of the turbine rotor with 4mm port 23,000rpm

      9. Area of 3mm port 7.065mm2

      10. Area of 4mm port 12.56mm2


      Suggested improvement = 1" port and 1" 40% diverging nozzle.



      The next part remains to be seen but it doesn't take a genius to work out that opening up the inlet of the turbine would be an upgrade.

      My conclusion without seeing it happen yet is that the turbine rotor will spin very fast and feed a lot of air into the pump maintaining the pump rotors speed.

      I'll show the experiment soon and then we can discuss the results.

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      Here is my new blueprinted hardened stainless steel 420htp rotor on a blueprinted grade 5 titanium axle. It cost £2500 but it will be worth it.

      It exceeds the quality of rotor even Nikola Tesla could have built. Apparently Tesla used "German Silver" for his discs.

      Tesla was also the father of dynamic balancing. Using his own analogue method.

      https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-te...nd-apparatus-balancing-rotating-machine-parts

      Using a balanced rotor the speed of the turbine will be many times higher than the pump.

      When used centripetally these rotors vacuum and decompress air.

      When used centrifugally these rotors vacuum and compress air.

      I know this because I've done the experiments with them and witnessed it.

      Here is my new inlet casing for the turbine.

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]
       
    6. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

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      [​IMG]

      The new casing features a 1" port and 1" 40% diverging nozzle.


      Here is a picture of turbine inlet casing used in video:

      3mm port and 1/2" 5% diverging nozzle.

      [​IMG]
       
    7. s.weinberg

      s.weinberg Well-Known Member EngineeringClicks Expert

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      Okay here are a few facts.

      Oh, goody goody. I love facts.

      1. The Tesla pump flywheel after being spun up by a motor creates a lower pressure at the pump inlet.

      As one would expect, yes. That's what anything that moves air does.

      2. A Tesla turbines exhaust is bolted to the inlet of the centrifugal Tesla pump.

      Alright.

      3. The Tesla turbine rotor is turned by the incoming draft on the turbine inlets.

      Alright.

      4. The current surface area of the turbine exhaust ports = 2090mm2

      Alright.

      5. The current area of the inlets combined = 28mm2

      Sure

      6. The pump is heavily restricited by the very small inlet area compaired to the exhaust. The result is low flow of air.

      Sounds at least partially incorrect. The amount of air going in is exactly the same as the amount going out (over time). There is a bit of pressure loss on the system through expansion and contraction of the air, sure, and you'll get higher velocity at your small inlets than your large outlet.
      But as much air as your turbine can pull is how much is going in, and how much is going out.
      Maybe what you're getting at is that the relatively small openings can create some drag on your turbine. Higher velocity, 1/2mv^2 and all that. So, ok.

      7. The top speed of the turbine rotor with 3mm port 18,000rpm.

      Ok

      8. The top speed of the turbine rotor with 4mm port 23,000rpm

      Alright

      9. Area of 3mm port 7.065mm2

      Sure

      10. Area of 4mm port 12.56mm2

      Fantastic.



      What you've demonstrated is that if you spin something in a box, it will drag air with it. The Tesla turbine is better than many objects at this, but it's true of anything, to an extent.
      You've further demonstrated that restricting your inlet creates energy loss.

      A bit more science, and a bit less history, and you'll almost be ready for a 6th grade science fair demo!

      Well, if you do want to reach that lofty perch, you're gonna have to drop a lot of your inane gobbeldy gook as well.
       
    8. s.weinberg

      s.weinberg Well-Known Member EngineeringClicks Expert

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      £2500?! For that one assembly?

      Dude, I feel seriously bad for you. Stop throwing away heaps of money. Hardened stainless? Titanium? Do you have any actual reason for using any of this other than, "Oh, shiny!?"

      Those parts look pretty basic. I'm surprised it cost that much, even with the exotic materials, but, then again, it's a one-off, so pricey.

      Unless, of course, it's other people's money you're throwing away, in which case, shame on you.
       
    9. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

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      WTF are you to tell me what to do with my own money!!

      Get off my thread unless you've got something constructive to write!

      Stainless 420HTP is the material used for circular blades. It withstands heat and is a spring stainless steel.

      It is also used because it is magnetic and the grinders use a magnetic chuck.

      It won't deform at high temperatures or speeds. This turbines bearings are rated at 156,000rpm

      Grade 5 titanium is aerospace grade. The key ways were spark eroded and the keys also made from grade 5 titanium.

      The parts are made with 1 micron parallelism and the shaft ground to 5 micron tolerances.

      This is the best made Tesla turbine rotor in the world and will perform as such, so take your negative comments and troll someone else you muppet!!!

      This thread is to record my research and development and is not there for you to try and belittle me or my R&D.

      Any constructive comments welcome!
       
    10. Paul T

      Paul T Well-Known Member

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      Where did I get the name "Thermodynamic Transformer" from?

      Well Nikola Tesla of course!

      US Patent 1,061,206 - Turbine

      "In the drawings, therefore, I have illustrated only the form of apparatus designed for the thermo-dynamic conversion of energy, a field in which the applications of the principle have the greatest practical value."

      "7. A thermo-dynamic converter, comprising in combination a series of rotatably mounted spaced disks with plane surfaces, an enclosing casing, inlet ports at the peripheral portion and outlet ports leading from the central portion of the same, as set forth."

      "8. A thermo-dynamic converter, comprising in combination a series of rotatably mounted spaced disks with plane surfaces and having openings adjacent to their central portions, an enclosing casing, inlet ports in the peripheral portion, and outlet ports leading from the central portion of the same, as set forth."


      British Patent 24,001 - Improved Method of Imparting Energy to or Deriving Energy from a Fluid and Apparatus for Use Therein

      "The greatest value of this invention will be found in its use for the thermodynamic conversion of energy."


      Canadian Patent 135174 - "Fluid Propulsion

      "The greatest value of this invention will be found in its use for the thermo-dynamic conversion of energy."

      "11. A thermo-dynamic converter comprising a shaft, a plurality of disks spaced thereon, an inlet for the motive fluid at the periphery of the disks and tangential thereto, and an outlet at the central portions of the same, as set forth."

      British Patent 179,043 - Improved Process of and Apparatus for Production of High Vacua

      "In the development of power by thermo-dynamic primemovers, as steam engines and turbines, a low back pressure is essential to good economy, the performance of the machine being increased from fifty to one hundred per cent. by reducing the absolute pressure in the exhaust space from fifteen to about one pound per square inch."

      British Patent 186,084 - Improved Process Of And Apparatus For Deriving Motive Power From Steam

      "at the same time increasing the efficiency of thermodynamic transformation."

      "The hereinbefore described process of thermo-dynamic transformation of energy which consists in admitting steam to a turbine nozzle, aspirating by the suction thus created hot products of combustion through a heater, superheating the steam by them and discharging them at high velocity and in a direction parallel to the steam-jet upon the rotor, as described."

      British Patent 186,083 - Improved Method of and Apparatus for the Economic Transformation of the Energy of Steam by Turbines

      "The chief object of my improvements is to increase the efficiency of the existing steam power plants and thermo-dynamic transformers operated therefrom"

      British Patent 174,544 - Improvements In Methods Of And Apparatus For The Generation Of Power By Elastic Fluid Turbines

      "In the first place my turbine is exceedingly suited for very elevated temperatures and also high pressures, while the Parsons excels in the efficiency of the thermo-dynamic transformation at moderate temperatures and low pressures."

      "1. The improved method of thermo-dynamic transformation which consists in converting a part of the heat energy of an elastic fluid by disc friction and a further part by blade action, substantially as described."
       
    11. s.weinberg

      s.weinberg Well-Known Member EngineeringClicks Expert

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      What kind of high heat do you expect to see on this giant spinning heat sink?
      Why do you want spring steel if you're looking for high rigidity?
      There are lots of magnetic alloys you could use, and using a magnetic chuck is a choice. Not hard to find another grinding shop.
      Why do you feel the need to harden the stainless? Are you running this in a sandstorm?
      Why titanium? Especially when you spent so much effort getting premium tolerances, why not use one material (with one CTE)?

      It may be the best Telsa turbine in the world. I don't doubt that, actually.
      And, as art, that has value.
      As a manufactured good, it's a marginally superior fan.

      And this thread isn't to record your R&D (if that's what you want to call your 'throwing darts at a wall and then drawing bulls-eyes around them' approach). It's whatever the forum decided it should be. So it started out as an effort to educate you, then for those scientifically literate to vent their frustration at your obstinacy, and now it's an amusing side-show, with me still in the education/venting phase, 'cause I'm stubborn that way.
       

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