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  • I want to get small-size-corrugated sheet metal but WHERE?

    Discussion in 'Sheet metal' started by Peter Dow, Aug 30, 2010.

    1. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      I want to explain and to show the sheet metal corrugations which I want to source and prove that it is available for big construction industry projects. I am not just making this up. So that is why I am quoting a website. It is not that I am associated with the company. I am not selling their product. This is not spam. Honest.

      I came across the Rigidal company's website while looking for someone to supply me with sheet metal of small-size corrugations for light fabrication or craft work for projects I do myself from time to time.

      Rigidal seem to be a long established company with many projects for the construction industry to their credit.

      And that is where I come in because I am not short of imagination and design ideas. Getting them built is the harder thing! :)

      Have you seen the very wide range of sheet profiles they offer to bend the sheet metal to? Very impressive!

      I am interested in their W-4/10 for example at a thickness of 0.7mm stainless steel.

      http://www.rigidal.co.uk/rigidal_creative_profiles_sinusoidal.html Your images may only be up to 1200 pixels high. :roll:

      Their zig-zags are too big but using their terminology, a Z-4/8 at thickness of 1mm stainless steel would be interesting.

      http://www.rigidal.co.uk/rigidal_zigzag_sheets.html
      [​IMG]

      They have a wider range of profiles as well -
      http://www.rigidal.co.uk/rigidal_creative_profiles_trapezoidal.html

      http://www.rigidal.co.uk/rigidal_extra_profiled_sheets.html

      http://www.rigidal.co.uk/rigidal_profiled_corrugated.html

      I have asked rigidal sales people about other profiles as well but I don't seem to be their usual kind of customer and so getting a quote out of the company for a small and uncertain number of sheets of stainless steel of this or that profile, or a sample in stainless steel, is not easy. In fact they are not answering my emails now.

      What I would really like would be to walk down to B&Q or Homebase or other local store and see those profiled metal sheets stacked on the shelves so I could pick and choose the ones I want from time to time.

      Does anyone have any ideas about how I could get hold of such exciting materials for my projects? Sure I can keep emailing Rigidal but I get the feeling they have better things to do than answer my emails.

      If it was easy to corrugate or bend the machine at home I would. But it looks like expensive roll forming or bending machinery is necessary so I will have to let someone else make it and then buy the corrugated sheet.
       
    2.  
    3. GarethW

      GarethW Chief Clicker Staff Member

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      Re: I want to get small-size-corrugated sheet metal but WHER

      That's an impressive range of products they have. The product with the fine corrugations you're after looks quite specialist. I had a quick browse around on the web but didn't come up with anything similar. I note that Rigidal have a UK rep network. I might be worth phoning your local rep direct if you can get his number. This is what I usually end up doing with these large companies - it can be impossible to get any sense out of them otherwise!
       
    4. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Re: I want to get small-size-corrugated sheet metal but WHER

      Thanks for replying Gareth.

      Well Rigidal offer to manufacture an impressive range but they don't "have" the products on the shelf, in stock whereby you could simply place an order for "one sheet of W-4/10" and it would be on its way to you next day. I think they are saying "we have the technology to make this range for your construction project".

      That is what disappoints me somewhat - that others have not yet seen the utility of small size corrugated sheets for general purposes.

      I might have hoped there would be a demand and a market for either a range of corrugated sheets to be available off the shelf in local do-it-yourself supply stores or perhaps if there was a corrugating tool you could buy to bend off-the-shelf flat sheets into corrugated sheets.

      Well I have had a long browse around and found one or two things similar but not really what I want.

      For example, there is such a thing as a Jeweller's Zig Zag machine.
      [​IMG]
      Zig Zag Machine Jeweler Metal Forming Rolling Mill Tool
      Which is clearly limited to narrow strips which can be zig-zagged and may not be strong enough to bend up to 1mm stainless steel. I don't think the method of intermeshing gears is what is used by Rigidal for their large range - more likely roll forming but they don't really explain how they produce their range. Possibly keeping commercial secrets to themselves?

      This is a bigger, though not big enough, sheet of too big zig-zags.

      [​IMG]
      This is what the French call a Plaque dents de loup - a baking tray for "wolf's teeth" which is a traditional French pastry.

      So I have found such similar items on the web but the Rigidal website is the only one which offers the small-size corrugations in big size sheets, but not offering small order quotes.

      Well I have emailed their company and the reply from representative was that
      • the corrugated sheets get manufactured in China to a customer's order[/*:m:2rzpkbq9]
      • how many did I want?[/*:m:2rzpkbq9]
      • Samples are in Aluminium sheet, not stainless steel sheet[/*:m:2rzpkbq9]
      When I emailed back asking for a quote price per sheet and asking if they can provide a stainless steel sample which proves the company's manufacturing process can produce the more difficult-to-bend stainless steel product I need and what was their minimum order price or quantity? - no reply. I telephoned one time and left a message on an answering machine asking them to email me back answering my questions, again no reply. I emailed them again - no reply.

      Rigidal are simply not configured to sell small quantities and I think I understand why - the overheads of managing the manufacture of a custom order, setting the tooling up in China, delivery etc. is bound to put a huge overhead cost on a small order. I assume all they have ever supplied is for an order for enough product to build a roof or other architectural feature of that size, in which case a custom order manufactured in China makes sense.

      I think Rigidal do make sense for the market they are supplying to - I just represent a customer for a different and as-yet tiny market is all.
       
    5. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Re: I want to get small-size-corrugated sheet metal but WHER

      OK I need to correct myself. The corrugated sheets available from Rigidal are not manufactured in China like I claimed but in Germany by MN Metallverarbeitung Neustadt GmbH, their wellTEC Cladding Sheet range.

      This is how I explained my embarrassing mistake in an email to MN.

      Moving swiftly on. :oops:

      So I did get an aluminium sample of W-4/10 through the post and this is what it looks like.

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      So that is 1mm thick aluminium and it looks like a very well engineered product as you might expect from Germany.

      I asked for a quote for W-4/10 in stainless steel from Rigidal. Rigidal offered only 1mm thickness in stainless steel and their quote for 1 sheet 1500mm x 1200mm was £700 plus VAT including delivery to Aberdeen, Scotland! :shock:

      Which is three times more expensive than the market price of a similar sheet of stainless steel without those specialist corrugations and perhaps given a more common finish, mirror polish or a common perforation maybe but Rigidal would not negotiate on the price.

      So next I did a google search to try to find Rigidal's suppliers who weren't named on their website and that's when I discovered the reason for the sample sticker being in German, not Chinese, and so I contacted MN via their website to see if they would improve on their quote and next day a saleswomen from MN phoned me which was nice and explained that a lot of this extra cost for small quantities is the set up cost because these specialist sheets are corrugated to order, not supplied from stock.

      MN do actually supply other standard thicknesses, such as 0.8mm which would suit me better for this W-4/10 profile and a thicker than 1mm thickness, which I can't remember what that was exactly 1 point something mm I think.

      The sales lady hinted that a better quote might be on offer and suggested contacting their named foreign partner in England a company called Cadisch MDA. I'm still waiting for a reply to my emails to Cadisch.

      So more information but still not a quote at a unit price per sheet that I can afford.
       
    6. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Re: I want to get small-size-corrugated sheet metal but WHER

      So I am looking around for another supplier with a better quote and so I want to talk about dimensions so this profile diagram will be handy.

      For MN's "W-4/10" the corrugation Wavelength "W" is about 10mm and the Amplitude is 4mm. You can also see from the image in the previous post above that the angle is wider and the corrugations are flatter than 90 degrees.

      [​IMG]

      But what I'd like quotes for is corrugating sheet stainless steel of a thickness of 1mm to a smaller W - 8mm and to a 90 degree angle of corrugations as shown in the profile diagram.

      QUOTE FOR THESE DIMENSIONS PLEASE
      W = 8mm
      A = 4mm
      T = 1mm
      S = 5.66 mm
      (by calculation, obviously I don't need it to be exactly that)

      I have tried to show you the difference of what I'd prefer a quote for compared to what MN's "W-4/10" looks like by compressing the image of W-4/10 width wise. This has the effect of making the shape much more like a flight of stairs - or a carpet on a flight of stairs anyway.

      [​IMG]
      Now it looks more like a "W-4/8"

      So I need a supplier who can quote for corrugating one or a few sheets of stainless steel to this size. How much you might charge for say 1500mm x 1200mm product or how much per metre squared of product?

      If a supplier would like to send me a sample of what you can do I would be delighted.

      I can provide my delivery address by email. I don't like to publish my home address on a web-page but I will email it to a fabrication shop website email address.

      Also if you know of an off the shelf product which is of approximately those size of corrugations of stainless steel that might be of interest. As you can see, MN's "W-4/10" was not precisely what I was looking for but it was close enough to be suitable if only the price was right.

      If this forum does not allow firms to advertise on forum pages then please PM me with quotes, suggestions etc. Thanks!
       
    7. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Corrugating sheet steel with a CNC Press Brake

      I had made some progress with this project but I am stalled again so I thought I would post an update to see if anyone can suggest a way forward from here.

      Here are the terms of an email I am sending out to anyone who knows anyone with a CNC Press Brake.

      [​IMG]

      http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7620/waveprofile.jpg

      [​IMG]

      http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1185/profilefq.jpg

      http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8337/profiledrawing.jpg


      [​IMG]

      In a later email he added.
      He didn't explain why. Perhaps initially he planned to start with the back-gauge positioned forward thinking he could use the CNC to move the back-gauge backwards each bend (allowing for 700 mm maximum finished panel) but later realized he would have to start with the back-gauge positioned at the back using the CNC to move the back-gauge forwards each bend (allowing for only 700 mm maximum blank sheet which would be bent with 50mm extra to grip for handling purposes)? Perhaps, but perhaps not. I don't know, he didn't say.

      If I understand him correctly, and I am speculating somewhat here, as this is outside the area of my expertise, but I suppose if the method of construction is to use the CNC controlled back-gauge to space accurately the bends to the required distance then I anticipate that the limit of stroke or travel of the back-gauge will be what limits the size of sheet in that dimension which can be bent?

      As I understand matters, the stroke or travel of an Amada CNC press brake back-gauge is typically 700 mm and that is where the 700mm limit to the size of the finished panel is imposed.

      Ideally I'd prefer a bigger size of sheet in that dimension than that but as the Amada machines available seem to impose an upper limit such as 700mm that, as they say, was that. 700 mm is OK. Bigger would be nice but it is not a deal breaker.

      You will know better than me the capabilities of your machine and what dimensions of sheet you are able to bend.
      The width of your CNC machine or its tools which you have available may or may not limit the size of the sheet in the other dimension compared to the size I would prefer.
      So summing up, if I was to suggest a size of around 2100 mm x 700 mm for the finished panel, or for the blank sheet you could tell me if that was possible for your machine or if you could bend bigger or not so big.

      The other company was talking about 1250 mm x 700 to 750 mm size. This is of interest but I was probing him with questions to see if he could produce bigger.

      The reason he seemed to quote for not going bigger than the 1250mm in the long dimension was for man handling purposes - a bigger sheet would require two men to turn the sheet over for each bend.

      All this I have gleaned in my communications with the other company and in many ways they have been helpful but my project seems to be stalled with them now and I wonder if you or your company can take it from here?

      The total area of finished panel required for my order could be as much as 10 metres squared, but if you can quote a price per finished panel this would be most useful so that I can figure out how many panels I can afford to buy.

      I hope that you can quote for this job or pass my email on to someone with a CNC Press Brake who might quote.
      [/quote:3m735cmd]
      General ideas and suggestions, please post a reply.

      Specific offers to quote or to provide a sample for me, please send me a private message.
       
    8. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Press break tooling for small corrugated sheet metal

      I have some more information on what press break tooling and how to use it to produce my desired corrugated sheets.

      I'd like to find a manufacturer to bend stainless steel sheets to make some corrugated panels of a custom design of my own, which would be similar but bigger than this small sample.

      [​IMG]


      The shape of the corrugations profile is

      http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2350/waveprofile780.jpg - image too big to display

      This profile can be made using a press brake from flat stainless steel sheet by making bends using some 5mm or 6 mm V-dies as shown in the diagrams. The sheet has to be manually turned over before each fold.

      This image shows the position of the sheet relative to the 6mm V-die block before the 3rd bend is made. The top tool is not drawn in.

      http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7936/6mmvdiebefore780.jpg - image too big to display

      There would seem to be two alternative possible ways to position the sheet for each fold

      If a CNC press brake is used, the back edge of the sheet could be positioned against the back-gauge which would move under operator sequenced CNC control by a set distance before each fold.


      Or, and this would seem to be the only method for a non-CNC press brake, a strip of steel could be attached (either using a strong epoxy glue such as Araldite, or soldered) along the vertical side of die block which would serve as a shim between the die block and the vertical side of the previous bend and the sheet could be positioned against the shim on the die block.

      Each proposed method of manufacture has its own advantages and disadvantages no doubt.

      This diagram shows the position of the sheet after the 3rd bend is made. Again the top tool is not drawn.

      http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8877/88dvtool12206.jpg - image too big to display

      http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1015/6mmvdieprofile780.jpg - image too big to display

      Not all die blocks with a 5mm or 6mm V are suitable for this job. The V does have to be quite close to the edge of the die-block. Fortunately, this is the case with some of the Double V Dies, of the type to fit an Amada press brake.

      [​IMG]

      There are a few similar Double V-dies listed in the Amada catalogue and possibly this one is the best one for this job if I have to buy the dies especially for this work.


      [​IMG]

      2 of those 123061 bottom tools would cost £254 which would give me panel length folding of up to 1670 mm.

      3 of those 123061 bottom tools would cost £381 which would give me panel length folding of up to 2505 mm.

      Alternative makes of similar tools might be slightly cheaper to buy, or it might be possible even to hire out those dies and suitable punch tools for this job?

      Not every company with a press brake will have the correct V-dies and punches to do this job in house to begin with so we may need to look at the options to buy or hire the right tooling to do the job.

      This extract from the Amada reference pdf recommends tonnage of 17 per metre and to bend to an inner bending radius of 1mm.

      [​IMG]

      The appropriate punch or top tool to use we can discuss later but I think many punches would work well enough providing they are 88 degrees or less with a point of 1mm radius or less.

      As you can gather I hope, I have researched this method of manufacture in some detail so I believe these panels can certainly be manufactured this way.

      Possibly there are other methods, perhaps using different tools which would be worth considering so if you can think of another (cheap) way to make this panel please feel free to make suggestions for alternative manufacturing methods to me.

      Mass production of similar architectural facade panels uses roll-forming most often but this is not practical or affordable for a custom design of panel.

      Also there is the question of exactly how big the panels can be made? There is no set size demanded, but I would prefer bigger panels all other matters being equal. Bigger panels are more difficult to make well so there will be an upper limit to the size of panel which can be made which may well be less than the size of the steel sheet as supplied.

      Other minor issues to watch out for would be making sure to find a steel supplier who will supply genuine 1.0 mm thick stainless steel sheet, and not the common 0.9 mm thick substitute. 1mm thich is for use with the 6mm V-die. Using a 5mm V-die you would use a thinner sheet, perhaps 0.8mm.

      The total area of sheets to be bent is likely to be about 10 metres squared of 316 grade in total - possibly less if the expense of manufacturing each panel is more than I hope.

      I can certainly afford the sheet steel, the question is how much would it cost to get the corrugated panels manufactured? Perhaps you would like to quote now or later for this work?

      Thank you for your interest in my project.
       
    9. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Got a press brake? Here's my Request for Quote!

      ATTENTION PRESS BRAKE OPERATORS - Please read my REQUEST FOR QUOTE!

      I have drawn up a few diagrams showing the appropriate way I believe to produce small-corrugations, "wave profile" panels using a press brake from steel sheet of thickness 0.9 mm, which would I think give a wavelength "W" of about 7.6 mm and an amplitude "A" of about 3.6 mm.

      To make this profile using a press brake, a standard #12306 Amada 6 mm V-die or equivalent needs first to be custom ground to suit.

      [​IMG]

      The next diagram shows the position of the sheet after two bends have been made and before the 3rd bend is made -

      [​IMG]

      The above diagram assumes a CNC backgauge stop is being used because I have left a 0.2 mm or thereabouts gap between the vertical side of the sheet and the die.

      The next diagram shows the position of the sheet after the top tool (not drawn) has been pressed down onto the sheet to make the third bend.

      [​IMG]

      One slight variation on these drawings is simply to use the side of the die as a stop (no CNC back-gauge required) which presumably would produce a 0.2 mm shorter bend separation width than as shown.

      Using the die as a stop might mean a wavelength dimension of about 7.4 to 7.5 mm and an amplitude of 3.4 to 3.5 mm.

      REQUEST FOR QUOTE :idea:

      So whether using a CNC back-gauge stop or the die as a stop, will anyone, especially in the UK but I'll consider quotes from elsewhere, with a press brake please now step forward and quote to make 12 panels by bending 12 sheets of stainless steel, grade 316, 0.9 mm thick, sheet size 2 m x 0.5 m, which involves making about 101 bends (using the CNC backguage stop method and a bend separation width of about 4.95mm) to 105 bends (using the die stop method and a bend separation width of about 4.75 mm) per sheet, to this profile? The bends would be along the longer length of the sheet - 2m long bends in a 2 m x 0.5 m sheet.

      Either that or quote me for what you and your press brake could make something like this plan please.
       
    10. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Small size corrugations - wave profile

      Here is a new diagram I have drawn to show the range of profile sizes I am interested in.

      [​IMG]
      1 millimetre = 0.0394 inch
      5 millimetres = 0.197 inch
       
    11. Peter Dow

      Peter Dow Well-Known Member

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      Corrugation Dies

      [​IMG]

      I have extracted the above image from the R-K Press Brake Dies Inc., Alsip, Illinois, USA, catalogue. PDF download - Right-click, Save target as ..

      I had previously seen a diagram showing the principle of how such corrugating dies work.

      [​IMG]

      Now I am pleased to find a company who do seem to be offering to custom-make the dies themselves from a few customer-provided parameters. :D

      I wonder if there is a British company similarly capable of producing such corrugating dies to order? :?

      I guess it will probably cost me too much for a 2.5 m length of such corrugating dies for my modest corrugating requirements. :(
       

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