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• # What follows is an off-the-wall idea

Discussion in 'The Leisure Lounge' started by Justcurioustwo, Nov 9, 2019.

1. ### JustcurioustwoActive Member

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Before jumping to wild accusations just spend a moment to consider its potential. I’m sure it doesn’t work too but still I need some proof before I bury the idea.

There are a large number of variables involved here which is way over my head and that is why I am here. At 70, I can take the truth so have at it pro or con..

Like many others who are trying to come up with a new form of renewable energy I gave it a shot, and this is what I came up with. The concept is simple enough, it uses the pressure of ocean depths and expanding air bubbles as they rise from the ocean below.

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3. ### JustcurioustwoActive Member

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SeaPower description

Attached is a diagram that details a new energy generating power source using the expanding rise of air underwater as a lifting force.

This is the same principal that keeps a boat afloat.

In the diagram, there is a linear row of balloons. The lower balloon or inverted umbrella; is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 18 ATM resulting in a volume of 16.66 cubic feet of air.

When the first balloon rises 99 feet (3 ATM) a second balloon attached to the first one is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 16.66 cubic feet of air.

In the diagram provided this process is repeated having five (5) balloons rising. The upper balloon at 3 ATM has a lifting force of 6.400 pounds

The next balloon at 6 ATM has a lifting force of 3,200 pounds

The next balloon at 9 ATM has a rising force of 2,133 pounds

The next balloon at 12 ATM has a lifting force of 1,600 pounds

The next balloon at 15 ATM has a lifting force of 1,080 pounds

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Total pulling force is a continuous lifting force of 14,413 pounds

This mechanical process can be converted to electrical output.

If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go.

4. ### s.weinbergWell-Known MemberEngineeringClicks Expert

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I think you nailed the problem on the head.
The reason the balloons will rise is that the air inside weighs less than the displaced water. You need to expend energy to displace that water, which is greater the deeper you go, for the same displacement.
In a perfect system, you'd be able to extract exactly all the energy you expended to fill the balloons. But no system is perfect, so you're going to end up net negative.

5. ### DanaWell-Known Member

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I didn't check your numbers, but calculate for yourself how much energy it takes to compress that volume of air to 18 ATM. You'll find it's exactly the same as the energy you could retrieve from the upward motion of the balloons. That's in a perfect world... in reality. frictional losses will result in you getting back less energy than you put in.

6. ### JustcurioustwoActive Member

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Principles to run the machine

There are a few basic principles that you cannot deny.

[1] an enclosed container (X) of air submerged in water has a lifting force (Y) equal to the volume of the water displaced minus the weight of the container; [yes] [no]

[2] connection multiple containers one on top of the other creates a combined lifting force of (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)

Which is a greater lifting force than (Y); [yes] [no]

[3] the energy needed to fill one container is equal to the energy needed to sustain the combined lifting force of the 10 (ten) containers referenced above minus the energy needed to keep it running.

; [yes] [no]

7. ### DanaWell-Known Member

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and minus the weight of the air, though admittedly it's insignificant unless you're talking about liquid air at high pressure, which I realize you're not.

True.

No, you're confusing energy and force.

The buoyancy of the containers produces a lifting force. Held down, they have potential energy. When allowed to rise, release that energy in the form of force X distance. It will take exactly the same amount of energy to push the container down on the other side. It doesn't matter whether you're pushing a full volume container down or compressing the air and filling a smaller container. If you're pumping air down a supply pipe at 18 atm, you're moving 1/18 as much air by volume... but it takes 18x the force, so it cancels out.

And remember, you're not talking about the energy required to fill one container; you're filling all five containers during the time all five containers have completed their ascent.

Spend some time studying the laws of thermodynamics. The first law says that the machine you describe won't produce energy. The second law says that on the contrary, it will take additional energy to keep it running.

8. ### s.weinbergWell-Known MemberEngineeringClicks Expert

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I know Dana and are are largely going over the same stuff in each post, but Justcurioustwo, are you planning on filling the balloons at the surface, or at the bottom of this contraption?

If at the top, you will expend (in a perfect system, which you won't have) the same energy dragging the balloons to the bottom as you will regain as they rise.

If at the bottom, you will expend the same energy filling each balloon as you will regain as they rise.

9. ### JustcurioustwoActive Member

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Principles to run the machine

There are a few basic principles that you cannot deny.

[1] an enclosed container (X) of air submerged in water has a lifting force (Y) equal to the volume of the water displaced minus the weight of the container; [yes] [no]

[2] connection multiple containers one on top of the other creates a combined lifting force of (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)

Which is a greater lifting force than (Y); [yes] [no]

[3] the energy needed to fill one container is equal to the energy needed to sustain the combined lifting force of the 10 (ten) containers referenced above minus the energy needed to keep it running.

; [yes] [no]

10. ### s.weinbergWell-Known MemberEngineeringClicks Expert

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You already posted that, and we pointed out where your error was

11. ### JustcurioustwoActive Member

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Yes, you all have been kind enough to try and answer the obvious to a block-headed old man. This I sincerely appreciate but I’m not convinced yet. In my post just before yours I asked a few questions with a [yes] or [no] answer. If you answer the two (2) questions with an explanation, I’ll move on and end this.

Please keep in mind I an talking about energy output at any one moment in time.

One rising balloon has a rising force of (X). Ten (10) rising balloons rising in tandem produce an energy output of (X) X 10.

Ok, I must admit this, my doctor told me to get on talk boards like this one and mumble away my time mumbling to strangers on forums like this instead of on public sidewalks talking to strangers. I must say his advice is working, I just need to find another topic to talk about.

Wish you and yours the best

btw: someone else pointed this out to me on another forum
https://lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/museum/themes/bellows.htm

Last edited: Nov 28, 2019